What am I doing today … I am working on materials for Columbia’s private school. I did a drawing for a gin bottle we’re designing. I also have to write an introduction for Dr. Gerald Edelman, a friend of mine who has won two Nobel prizes and who is giving the commencement speech at the School of Visual Arts tomorrow.

Is that a typical day?

Yes, it’s always a mixed bag.

How long has your studio been in this building?

Since 1965. It was actually first Push Pin’s building and I bought it in the early 70s. We started New York Magazine in this building in 1968.

Who has been your longest lasting employee?

This is a whole new generation of employees. Everyone here is in their 30s. People work for me for 20 years. The oldest now is 35!

Do you like working with young people?

It doesn’t matter to me. I like working with anyone of any age depending on their temperament and personality.

Why does it say “Art is Work” on the front door?

I wrote a book called Art is Work. It was about the idea of removing art from life by making it a second manifestation of activity. When people put art in a special isolated plane of activity, I feel that they remove it too much from life and what everyday activities demand. Everyone says “art is not work” and they distinguish art as an activity and work as an activity. I said, why don’t we view it simply as a manifestation of work? Then you don’t worry about the category. Then you judge art on its effect.

Of all the art you produced. Which was the most work?

That is interesting. Some projects were ongoing, like the Grand Union supermarkets I did for a wonderful man, Sir James Goldsmith. That was 20 years worth of work. I had 15 or 20 people working every day for 20 years on the supermarkets and we designed between 200 and 300 of them. That was hard! Fortunately, most of it was done by others.

What are you most proud of?

Staying alive and coming to work every day and still being capable of producing good work; being active in the world.

That’s your life. But what piece of work are you most proud of?

I don’t think that way. I think of it as a continuity—they stumble into one another. There is a sense of development in my work that is most interesting, not any single piece of my work.

How has your work changed over the years?

It would be difficult to objectively say. It has moved inevitably—as the work of most people has—from the representational to the abstract. But since everything is abstract it is not necessarily a phrase that means anything to anybody. Earlier, I was also more involved with illustration and increasingly moved to the conceptual. So a definite move from the illustrative to the abstract. And a lot of what I do has nothing to do with what I used to do. The work has gotten more about the mind than the hand. Though inevitably you realize they’re the same thing.

I am sure you have answered this about a million times, but I have to ask about “I Love New York” or “I Heart New York.” I don’t even know what to call it! Love or heart?

What you may not realize that is that the heart, a symbol used as a verb, has now entered into the Oxford English Dictionary. This happened a couple of weeks ago. So heart is now a verb. It entered with an acknowledgement that “I Love New York” was the manifestation that did it, the first symbol ever to enter the Oxford Dictionary. You can call it either one as both are correct.

So how did you get that gig?

The state and city were in trouble in 1975. Were you alive in 75?

No, no I was not. 1976, actually. I would fit into your office. I would be the oldest person!

Things were bad financially, spiritually, and metaphysically. And the state knew that it had to do something. One thing that had happened was that the city had become very dangerous and, if you can imagine this, people were literally afraid to go out at night. If you were sitting on 62nd street and you said to your wife you wanted to go out to dinner, you would not go, if it was after dark.

Unimaginable in the New York of today.

Yes! Tourism plummeted and people stopped coming to New York City. The economy was in the toilet and people left; real estate plunged too. It was the greatest time though, to get an apartment! So, the state realized it had a problem. They hired a smart ad agency, Wells Rich Greene, who came up thematically with “I Love New York” and the assistant commissioner of commerce came to the office and said to me “I have an assignment for you.” And the assignment was to make a visual equivalent of “I Love New York.” That is how it happened.

And now it is everywhere.

Everywhere! Except that you realize how little you know about the nature of the world. Try to figure out why if you go to Chinatown you see ten gazillion “I Heart New York” logos. There is no city in the world you can go to that does not have an “I Heart” shirt or logo.

That is so telling about how important the slogan is. Yesterday in a meeting at Fab, I was telling my team I was coming here to meet you. And the design people all knew your name. But others on my team don’t know you as a household name. And I said, “He’s most famous for designing ‘I Heart New York’” and the employee who did not know your name opened his jacket and he was wearing an “I Heart New York” shirt!

I love it. The great mystery is why that happens. I have done things people remember, the Dylan poster for example, but nothing like this.

Is there anything you can think of that is replicated as widely?

I cannot think of anything as universal. Across borders. Everywhere. The world was waiting for some way of expressing the idea and they had not received it.

It’s remarkable.

It is and it all derives from the heart carved in a tree with initials, but with a minor shift in syntax. I cannot figure it out.

You mentioned the Dylan poster, which is my favorite piece from your body of work. Can you tell that story?

I knew Dylan because of his manager, Albert Grossman, who was every one’s manager in the 60s. Albert became a good friend. We were all in Woodstock during the early parts of his fame. The poster was a commission from Columbia Records quite independent of my connection to Dylan. They just wanted a poster.

I see your picture with Obama. What was it like to meet him?

I was invited to this wonderful party at the Smithsonian and I was among 20 honorees. It was a very distinguished group of people and a thrill meeting Obama. He has an enormous presence and a sense of decency. And he was an impressive guy. He’s a cool cat and meeting him was a nice feeling.

Do you have any heroes?

Artistic or otherwise?

Either.

In history, certainly Lincoln. Artistic heroes I have many. I studied with Giorgio Morandi. He’s the big hero of mine. Actually there are many heroic figures in all fields. Too many actually.

How did your relationship Vitsoe start and how did the 606 come about?

Rams: I was very lucky. At 23, I met the Braun brothers and then went to work for the company. I met Niels Vitsoe in 1957 through an introduction by Otto Zapf. The concept for the 606 Shelving System was to create a place to put things. In Germany after the war, homes were smaller—everything was smaller. The old German furniture was large and ornate. I simply wanted to make more space to fit more people.

Adams: To this day, I hear from our customers how much we’ve changed their spaces. What we do is lift things off the floor. You see baseboards and moldings. By lifting things off the floor, the 606 makes spaces appear bigger, even if there are more things in the room.

When you designed the 606 in 1960, did you imagine it would remain in production for over 50 years?

Rams: Nobody believed this would happen. I was dreaming that it was possible though…

Adams: There is a lot going on to keep the 606 evolving. Persistence to keep the product at its best is a huge undertaking. Niels Vitsoe once said “design cannot stand still.” And we are always moving. I was recently asked what parts of the 606 had changed and within 15 minutes I’d counted up 54 improvements.

Rams: The details…

Adams: Yes, a constant evolution must occur in the details. This is my zoological background here. At Vitsoe, we design for the long term. Other furniture companies are dictated by a 12 month cycle. We do not do that at Vitsoe. We use that time in Milan improving Vitsoe, not attending parties. We’ve stayed the same company.

How has the customer changed over the years?

Rams: Originally the Vitsoe showroom in downtown Frankfurt was a meeting place for designers. At 5:00 P.M. Niels would pull the whiskey out.

Adams: Which you never touched…

Rams: Of course not!

Do you still pull out the whiskey at 5:00 P.M.?

Adams: Not at five, but we do still believe in the importance of social relationships. They’re hugely important. Once a client sees the value in living more responsibly they cannot go back. Half of our orders come from existing customers. In the United States there is a definite wariness to give out personal details. In Europe there seems to be more trust with the client. In the past 8-12 years we have started seeing a change. We have not changed our philosophy, but the wind is now blowing in our direction. The consumer is moving more and more in our direction, towards sustainability. Towards having things for the long term.

Rams: Communication with the consumer has changed so much, too. In the US Vitsoe was dependent on the trade. Today we reach consumers in other ways.

Adams: The Internet allows the relationship to be cemented. Vitsoe is a dot com. We behave as a dot com. We look like a furniture company, but we’re truly a dot com. In Milan, furniture manufacturers and retailers meet. But we’re more interested in the consumer relationship.

Why did you bring the exhibit to New York?

Adams: It was first staged in London and we brought it to New York to show our New York team and it was a chance to have Dieter come. And Dietrich Lubs, who loaned his 606 for the exhibit, got to come too. And yes we are showing 50 year old furniture at ICFF! It’s a powerful message that we’re not showing new furniture the week before ICFF starts. That’s the counterculture that’s always existed at Vitsoe. It is a cheekiness that’s always been present in this grandfather-father-son relationship. Niels was my grandfather’s age and Dieter my father’s. We are purposely showing 50 year old furniture the week before ICFF, not during.

Rams: America has always been a different world though. It has changed. The first time I came was at Niels’ request. He wanted to show me New York to discover any possibilities in America. I could not believe you needed an interior designer to buy furniture. They had a giant building full of designers and dealers.

Adams: They still do!

Rams: But then you needed a decorator to buy something.

Our time is nearly up and I have one last question. In one word, describe the 606?

Adams: I asked several Vitsoe employees and they listed simple, adaptable, flexible, long-lasting, life-changing, which I know sounds pretentious, but it is what customers say. I would choose long-lasting. Creating a long-lasting design colors every decision we make. It is why Vitsoe cannot be a public company. That would be impossible. You cannot design long term if money is the primary factor.

Rams: I would say space-saving. Never forget that a good product should be like a good English butler. They’re there for you when you need them, but in the background at all other times. Besides a few millionaires in London, most of us don’t have butlers.

The butlers of today are our products and our furniture.

What was the first piece of art you ever made?

I took a pastels class when I was really young—eight years old or so—and I kept the first drawing; it’s framed, hanging in my kitchen. It’s a still life of a kettle with some fruit. I have to say that it’s pretty darn good. I can’t remember, though, if I did most of the drawing or if my hand was guided by the teacher. Let’s just say it was all me. That’s a better story. Thinking back on it now, I can’t believe my parents put me in a pastels class. When I went off to college, my mother told me I shouldn’t go into art because “you can’t do anything with it.” Strange that she was the one that sent me to art classes when I was a kid!

Who taught you to sew?

My home economics teacher taught the whole 5th grade class to sew. We made tote bags long before tote bags were popular. Mine was made of a purple plaid cotton. Very practical, yet sassy. The rest of it, embroidery and hand sewing, I taught myself from a book.

When did you learn to crochet?

My mother taught me when I was about ten. I forced her to sit me down and show me how to make granny squares. I remember my first stitches being so tight that the hook squeaked as I was crocheting. Tension was the hardest thing to learn. I imagine I was taking out my childhood anxieties on the yarn. Once I learned to loosen up a bit, I made granny squares like no one’s business. I had great plans to make a multicolored afghan, a coat-of-many-colors-type of design. I got bored halfway through and decided it should be a baby blanket. I completed them, but never sewed them together. It would have been atrocious anyway—I didn’t necessarily have an eye for color at age ten.

What has been the most challenging piece to create?

Whatever I’m working on at the moment always seems to be the most challenging. I forget that the last piece was just as difficult as the one I’m working on now. If I were to pick a piece, it would be the Lion (above). Piecing together the face required more intricacy than I had expected, getting the differing colors of yarn to work together in a cohesive way. The mane proved to be the most baffling part of any project to date. It took me quite a long time to figure out how to make it stand on its own. I tried crocheting with wire and yarn together, wrapping the base of each strand, braiding…everything I could think of. The final solution was to just pack in the strands of yarn and let them hold each other up. The mane is done with the same technique as a latch-hook rug, but with about six strands in each hole. A bit time consuming, to say the least.

You crochet masculine images and objects using the feminine technique of crochet. Do you work in other mediums?

I have embroidered and knit in the past. My upcoming exhibition will include some knitting as well, if it all works out correctly. I also draw for a side project and was trained as a painter in school. But, for the most part, my main medium at the moment is yarn and a hook, which makes projects pretty portable and easy to work on in public.

Do women and men have different reactions to your art?

Yes, no, and, it varies. Can that be my answer? Everyone seems to be pretty amazed at the objects that can be created using crochet. When it comes to the objects and symbols, men tend to respond to the pieces on a different level. Often, they have experienced these objects in a way that women haven’t. Take the urinal for example. I sent out a postcard with the urinal as the main image. The photograph was taken from above, the way a man would view it while using it. Women had no idea what the image was supposed to be until they read the title on the opposite side of the postcard. Men recognized it immediately. 

Men and women also approach the concept behind my work differently. Women continue to struggle with gender stereotypes in society, having to prove that they are capable of the same things as men. Some men come at it from another angle. Some resent the act of using traditionally masculine objects/activities—they feel these activities and objects are being taken from them, and made available to all. This can frighten them, or make them excited that things are leveling out. Other gents have told me that my work inspires them. During a recent artist talk at Lion Brand Yarn Studio, a man told me he would mention his knitting to friends, but bookend it with his love for football and fixing cars. Some men have wanted to be crafters for years, but have not had the guts to do it in public, or to show off their wares for fear of being seen as too feminine.

From either perspective, male or female, people are forced to think about what defines them, and how they relate to their gender.

You’ve started a project with Jonathan Adler. How did that come about, and what will you be making for them?

I was actually just chatting with some employees at the Jonathan Adler store on the Upper West Side in Manhattan (they are a fabulous bunch, just so you know) while I made a purchase. We began to talk about what I do, and they asked to see my work. I showed them my website, and through that I got a meeting with the merchandise buyer. The Jonathan Adler collection has a similar look and feel to it, so my work will fit in perfectly. Apparently they like to work with and support local artists, which is fantastic. I’ll be doing some limited-edition framed doilies for them. They’ll be available in stores as soon as I can finish them! (You can sign up for my email updates and I’ll send out an email when they are for sale)

You’re working on a locker room installation, all crocheted. That sounds daunting. Are you nervous about the undertaking?

Short answer: YES.

Unlike with other pieces, this installation is going to be very large and will consist of a lot of different parts. It will be representative of a locker room, and you will be able to move around between the pieces. I feel that traditionally the locker room has been a shrine to masculinity. A place that men should be able to go and be men. To let down their guard. For me, it has been a place of vulnerability, judgement, and measuring up. There is an element of competition and comparing strength, and for some reason this is seen as particularly masculine. I am putting people in a position to question this by creating this space in crochet.

Like my other pieces, I have no idea how I will actually make it happen until I just start doing it. I’ve had to begin that process and it’s sometimes overwhelming. Constructing the armatures for toilets and shower posts, etc., is a struggle, but it’s coming along. The work needs to be completed before October of this year, and I still have a lot of work ahead of me. 

The work will be on display at Portlock Galleries in SoNo in Chesapeake, Virginia, and I am hoping there is interest enough in the work to take the show to other venues around the country!

Our working process is something we try to always be keenly aware of. It is easy to fall into a subconscious acceptance of the patterns of working and making. Instead, in all our projects, we try to investigate process and break through predictable patterns of methodology.  By focusing on the process,rather than on an end result, we often stumble upon great discoveries, and often these discoveries become the foundation around which we build a project.

You reference Russian nesting dolls in your design brief. Have you thought about designing toys?

I’ve thought about designing just about everything! Including toys. I often observe the way that children react to objects.  There is an ease, a directness, or purity which grownups also have, perhaps, but find difficult to access.

Is there one discipline you love more than the others? Furniture, objects, buildings, interiors?

The goal of the practice is to collapse the traditional distinctions between these disciplines.  We are devoted to an exploration of the relationship between spaces and objects, and to building holistic environments where objects are considered spatial, and where space is objectified. So, it’s very difficult to answer this question without undermining the basic premise of our methodology.

You were born in Jerusalem and live in Vancouver. Do either of those cities influence your work?

I don’t like thinking of my work as regional.  Yes - I’ve spent time in Vancouver and Jerusalem, but I’ve also lived for extended periods in Barcelona, Rome, New York and Mexico City…  Of course every place you visit influences you in many ways, some conscious, some unconscious —- but on a basic level I’d like to believe that the motivations for our work are simply what they are; and not any kind of response to region.

I am thrilled that you catalogue all your work with sequence numbers. What made you decide to do this?

It’s a great tool for self-reflection. Rather then inventing names for our pieces, it seemed interesting to catalogue them in chronological order.  We are thus able to remain more conscious, see the patterns, motivations and obsessions in the work, focus on them and refine them.  Also, the numbering system helps break down the separation in scale that is traditionally attributed to the traditionally defined fields of architecture or industrial design.  A project is simply a project for us - it gets a number - and we approach it in the same way we approach our other projects, whether it be an object or a space.

You’re Creative Director of Bocci and principal of OAO, your architecture and design practice. How do you have time to do both? In what ways do the roles overlap?

At OAO we design spaces and objects, but other people make them.  So, it’s a higher level sort of involvement and we must learn to rely on many individuals who have more expertise then we do in their respective fields.  We direct them, learn from them, teach them, all in the service of what we hope is an interesting approach. At bocci on the other hand, we are also the ones who make the work.  So my involvement as creative director reaches far deeper into the project.  We end up making decisions about fractions of a millimeter.  Its very exhilarating but slower going then at OAO.

There are synergies between the two companies - sometimes Bocci manufactures components for OAO buildings, for example - or pieces developed as part of OAO projects end up in the bocci collection, that sort of thing.  As for time… hard question to answer.  I have great collaborators who help.  And I like my work so its not a burden to work a lot.

Have many objects you’ve created for architectural projects become mass produced? Are there any that you wish would have made it into production?

Yes - this is a “built in” synergy in our methodology.  There is a sort of natural selection that occurs.  The best ideas make it to production, one way or another.  Generally speaking, the ones that don’t make it to production are not strong enough, or too specific to a particular set of circumstances, or not rigorous enough.

What projects are you currently working on? 

We are photographing our first freestanding house this week - a relief as we’ve been working on it for three years.  We have a high end contemporary furniture shop (B&B Italia, etc.) called Kiosk under construction at the moment in Toronto.  We’ve just sent off a set of flatware to a manufacturer for consideration (I’ll have to keep the name of the manufacturer confidential for the time being).  We’re working on two different luxury getaway cabins in remote and quite beautiful locations.  And, we are just starting work on a desk lamp design for bocci.

Lastly, what is your favorite building in the world? Why?

I have so many buildings that would qualify, at one point or another in my life, as my favorite building.  It’s difficult to choose and I’m sure if I do I’ll end up changing my mind tomorrow.  Over the past months I’ve been obsessed with Adolf Loos’ American Bar in Vienna.  Everything these is just as it should be, like a well organized travel case.